Details zum Retune für Lee Sin – Das soll sich beim blinden Mönch ändern [Update]

LoL - Lee Sin Artwork

Vor wenigen Tagen hat Riot Jag bereits bestätigt, dass aktuell ein „Retune“ von Lee Sin in der Mache ist, im Zuge dessen vor allem die Werte und Kennzahlen des blinden Mönchs überarbeitet werden sollen. In einem ausführlichen Beitrag ist RiotChun – der sich aktuell mit den Anpassungen beschäftigt – nun im Detail darauf eingegangen, was genau für Lee Sin geplant ist.

Chun geht dabei zunächst auf die Probleme von Lee Sin ein, die mit den Änderungen gelöst werden sollen. Anschließend wird er dann sehr konkret und verrät, wie genau dessen Werte angepasst werden sollen. Wie immer gilt dabei allerdings: Noch ist nichts final, bis zum Release des Retunes kann sich also das eine oder andere durchaus noch ändern.

Zitat von RiotChun (Quelle)

Hey all,

As some of you may have heard, there is a Lee Sin retune going on and I’m currently working on it. I just wanted to tell you about some of our planned changes before they hit the PBE (so we can talk about why we’re making the changes).

Our specific goal with Lee Sin is to solve the following problems as we see them:

  1. The ranged melee tanky-DPS assassin mage tank-support jungler Lee Sin has the full kit to single-handedly dominate early to mid game. We like that he’s strong here, but he’s so overwhelming at times that it makes him go from someone who needs to be consistently skilled to make big plays to someone who wins certain phases of the game with the safety of his high base stats.
  2. Lee Sin falls off really hard late game, so this puts even more pressure on him to win (or snowball his entire team) before that happens. There are some champions who follow this power curve, but none as extreme as Lee Sin (maybe pre-rework Garen). Letting Lee only ‘play‘ half the game (in an unbalanced way) so he doesn’t become useless in the other half is really unhealthy (for both Lee and his opponents).

Now let me walk you through all the changes (note: THESE ARE NOT FINALIZED. We’re still working on them!):

Flurry

This is the core change for Lee Sin’s late game power level. The huge attack speed buff at later levels means Lee Sin can deal a lot of sustained damage in team fights without relying so completely on his ability damage.

  • Attack Speed bonus increased to 40/60/80/100% (at levels 1/6/11/16) from 40% at all levels

Sonic Wave

This is actually a small early game power shift (we focused more on Tempest, so see that below). Something important to note – it seems like a huge nerf to Lee Sin’s damage, but it’s really only a 10 damage nerf at level 1 (with the right runes / masteries) because it scales with total AD and not bonus AD. Changing the ratio to total AD means Lee Sin will snowball less when he’s far ahead while also being able to still deal some damage when he’s really behind. At mid game this is actually a damage buff if he’s ranking up Sonic Wave.

  • Damage changed to 15/35/55/75/95 (+0.5/0.6/0.7/0.8/0.9 Total AD) from 50/80/110/140/170 (+0.9 Bonus AD)

Resonating Strike

The 8% missing health change doesn’t really work on tanks (which is originally what we designed it for), even if it seems to be built as an HP shredding ability. This change just makes it clear that you should use Sonic Wave / Resonating Strike when you want more damage and makes its use less confusing.

  • Damage changed to 15/35/55/75/95 (+0.5/0.6/0.7/0.8/0.9 Total AD) from 50/80/110/140/170 (+0.9 Bonus AD)
  • Now deals up to 50% bonus damage (150% total damage) based on the target’s missing Health instead of 8% of the target’s missing Health

Safeguard

We had a big discussion on this topic! I’ll go deeper on this later on but, for now, I’ll just throw out some high level thoughts: ward hopping isn’t something we saw coming in League, but when we did we thought it was really cool and had fun gameplay attached to it. Still, it gives Lee Sin a lot of free mobility (which can be really frustrating, especially because wards are invisible and he can basically set up a “safety net” of wards in the jungle to hop around), and we wanted to reduce a little of that frustration. There’s also the problem with Lee using his defensive movement ability just to get in position for his offensive movement ability (Sonic Wave), and he wasn’t really paying a cost for doing it (unlike Katarina or Jax who have to give up a damaging ability and can only move once). Anyway, we wanted to increase the cost of using Safeguard offensively for more tradeoffs in when Lee can use it.

  • Cost increased to 100 from 50
  • Refunds 50 energy if cast on an allied champion (including self)

Tempest

With the late game power buff on Flurry, we needed to reduce some damage somewhere, and Tempest’s high utility was where we looked. These numbers might still be too high, but the general idea is that if you level up Tempest while building tanky on Lee Sin, the damage difference won’t be really big. If you build lots of AD on Lee Sin, you’ll definitely see less damage on Tempest (which we made up for in Flurry).

  • Damage changed to 25/50/75/10/125 (+0.6 total AD) from 60/95/130/165/200 (+1.0 Bonus AD)
  • Now deals physical damage instead of magic

Cripple

This debuff used to update only once every 1 second, so it was a long and very powerful slow. We made it a little more gradual and fixed a bug where it used to not work well with Tenacity (as in it was affecting them a little too much).

Dragon’s Rage

While this is a significant damage nerf on the first part of Dragon’s Rage, we really wanted to separate its use in utility versus damage. If you’re using Dragon’s Rage to kick a high-value target to your team, you should be giving something up like the AoE-damage and crowd control utility. If you decide to kick someone into the enemy team, you’ll get more rewards through the knockup and high damage (it doesn’t have diminishing returns per target hit).In regards of the damage nerf, Dragon Rage’s old high values combined with the Flurry buffs would make him insane in duels, so we had to reduce that power. I can’t stress how much the new Flurry helps Lee Sin’s damage at late game!

  • Damage changed to 50/150/250 (+0.75/0.875/1.0 Total AD) from 200/400/600 (+2.0 Bonus AD)
  • For each enemies target collide with would make target take 25/75/125 (+0.375/0.4375/0.5 Total AD) extra damage

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Update am 10.03.2014: Sowohl RiotChun als auch Morello sind am Wochenende in zum Teil sehr ausführlichen Beiträgen auf Feedback und Fragen zu den geplanten Lee Sin-Änderungen eingegangen.

Zitat von RiotChun (Quelle)

I think the most significant problem we have here is that the Flurry Attack Speed buff is really hard to understand on paper, making the changes as a whole feel like we are sapping the life from Lee.

Let’s approach the problem numerically first: Assume Lee Sin builds the most common bruiser/assassin build (which is AD/Armor Pen/tankiness etc. – items which support a pattern of quickly accessing the backline and surviving for a bit once there) in a game and he hits lv16. The PBE Lee Sin will have is 100%(his base AS)+45%(3% per level and he leveled up 15 times) +100%(new flurry)=245%(of original AS). Meanwhile, the Live Flurry values will leave Lee with 100%+45%+40%=185% of original AS. The difference here results in a 32.4% sustain damage increase from basic attacks if Lee can manage his passive in an ideal way. With so much more sustain damage, Lee Sin provides a higher damage threat to enemies after the first few seconds, without having to burst them as hard in the first one or two. It also means a 32.4% improved basic attack frame – landing auto attacks in between spells will be more feasible and more rewarding.

I think your simulation of Lee Sin in a late game team fight is based on the fact that the Live version of Lee Sin is really weak at that point. Considering all the tools he has, why is that, and how does it happen? In a world where Lee Sin can deal meaningful sustained damage at all points in the game, you no longer are relegated to just looking for an ideal initiation and then having 80% of your job done. He can still have that meaningful initiation power, but the power it brings becomes largely about positioning, and less about the burst. After this point, he can use his increased sustain damage to remain a legitimate threat to the enemy team.

Dragon’s Rage specifically is a really cool spell that provides a ton of fun gameplay, but as mentioned above, we really want to separate its use as utility versus damage.

The current proposed Dragon’s Rage does approximately 50/55/60% damage compared to the Live version on cast, but it is increased by 50% for each enemy the target collides with. Under this paradigm, if you manage to kick your target into two enemy champions, it’s about same damage. If you manage to kick your target through his whole team, however, you will get a very noticeable damage reward (750 + 3.0 Total AD), resulting in massive damage to the original target.

It’s definitely cool to Insec kick a high-profile enemy into your team, but the cool thing about that play specifically really isn’t the damage you dealt; it’s the displacement utility you brought to your team. And while that play is cool, it has come to overshadow other uses of the ability in team fights. We want to reward players for thinking about the direction in which they kick their target.

As far as the 1v1 case is concerned, Dragon’s Rage will deal 100ish less damage. This is absolutely significant, but the increased sustained threat from Flurry should be enough to compensate for that after the first few seconds.

Zitat von Meddler (Quelle)

 Actually posted this on Reddit, but wanted to talk about these

I’ve been monitoring this set of threads a bit. Let me start by making sure I understand the community thoughts accurately:

* Lee’s identity as a mobile character that transitions from assassin to tank is under fire, and that identity is really awesome, fun and unique. Changing this is a big problem because it’s not only cool, but is positive for the game’s variety.

* The new mechanics around late-game AA damage is unrealistic and will not have good results, because Lee cannot function in that role in teamfights. Additionally, his mobility predicates a hit-and-run style in big engagements.

* Lee is really balanced and should not be nerfed.

* Safeguard ward-hopping changes are too far.

With that, let me talk a bit about this;

1) I agree on the identity thing. Statikk, Chun and I will look at this on Monday. I think you’re spot-on here.

2) These Flurry mechanics have tested pretty awesomely, but aren’t compensation for nerfs or a new function for Lee. Agreed.

3) Ward hopping will undergo additional numbers tuning, however, this is one I feel more strongly about. Ward-hiopping is a lot of what Lee is about and makes him fun – we talked a lot about why we will not remove the ability to do so – however, it’s up too often and makes him a bit too mobile. I think this is a fair place to hit raw uptime, though I tend to think CD and not energy is better (will debate with team on this).

4) Lee Sin is out of line in HOW MUCH he expresses force early. His late-game power is probably right (as a tank-style pick/initiator), but his early game power is still too high. I’m OK with him being more potent early than late, I don’t think that means it has to be completely lopsided. His skill expression should matter a bit more early than it does currently (let’s be honest, there’s a lot of safety in Lee’s early power).

5) This is not slated for a release date yet, and PBE was to experiment with these changes. So this is a good time to talk about these things!

Zitat von Morello (Quelle)

At first the nerfs seemed way out of line, but the more I think about it the more reasonable it seems. It’s not hard to add some AAs to your combo with 100% attack speed. The biggest frustration playing against Lee is how much damage he can do to you while being in control of the terms of engagement. Now, he can get the same effect but has to stay next to his target for a little bit longer.

However, I feel like he also could have been tweaked with conventional means. W giving too much mobility? instead of ruining ward jumps, add 2 seconds to W CD. Too much early game damage? Well, why the hell does he have a non-ultimate ability with 340 +1.8 bonus AD at level 9? Just make it’s damage and scaling commensurate with its cooldown. It should be similar in damage to Talon’s rake, 260 +1.2.

I tend to think +X% CD when using this on a ward is a good solution. I want this uptime/context-less mobility reduced, but not removed or gutted.

Zitat von Morello (Quelle)

Have you considered giving the 50% energy cost to minions? I understand the argument that wards being invisible and expendable are very strong, but I feel as though an increased energy cost to hopping to minions is too big a hit to his laning phase.

On the table – I think the difference between wards/non-wards seems right to me.

Zitat von Morello (Quelle)

I might recommend implementing this as:

-Increase Cooldown for Safeguard/IW.
-Primary cooldown reduced by „X“ when used on an allied champion. Consider making the contextual CDR something that scales with ability rank.

While I like flat/% more than scale with rank (later allies are more plentiful), this is how I see it more myself too.

Zitat von Morello (Quelle)

How would it balance out if ward hoping destroyed the ward, or reveals it for a short time. I feel like the Vision changes really allows Lee to set up safety nets that can’t be broken since oracle is out.

We’ve tested this, and it’s interesting. Not off-the table, but doesn’t solve the problem (just makes it more gold-driven).

Zitat von Meddler (Quelle)

Would you stop allowing posts like what you’ve responded to here to derail threads that are on a specific topic? It’s really annoying.

That being said; what ARE you looking for with Lee? If he’s going to be an early game assassin and a late game tank, what hooks really emphasize that?

I guess my issue is that his kit doesn’t really scream tank or assassin. Half of his abilities are great for being an assassin, and the other half are great for being a tank. Combining them, I think he follows Diana’s lead and becomes someone who is caught between two play-style paradigms. The difference is that he is capable of getting out of a bad situation, which makes him significantly more powerful than Diana. So, if you want him to be both, which sounds reasonable, then his current power curve is probably what you’re looking for, but there needs to be a far more rapid drop off, considering his mobility/ultimate utility.

Early game Fighter or Assassin (AD Caster? It’s weird) into a late-game tank transition is the direction I believe we want here. The current changes aren’t doing that, so we’ll modify.

Zitat von Morello (Quelle)

Have you thought about increasing the CD on his W if he uses it to get to a ward? or the cooldown halves when you use it on an ally?

Oh, and also his Ultimate is something i would like to talk about. The damage on it right now is a bit absurd so its fairly reasonable to expect a nerf but in case you havent noticed lee’s ult is useless if he doesnt land it one more person with the knockback + knock-up! Is there anyway we can get a new animation on his ult that increases the hitbox of the enemy hit to a standard X by X unit?

That’s the approach I personally like best, too.


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Kommentare zu "Details zum Retune für Lee Sin – Das soll sich beim blinden Mönch ändern [Update]"

wenn ich diese umstellung von bonus ad zu total ad richtig verstehe heißt das im endeffekt das sin's spielweise stärker von seinem build abhängig wird?

Also, ich finde die Änderungen sehr gut und auch nötig. Das wird Lee Sin endlich zu einem Character machen, der auch etwas Talent und Übung erfordert. Vor Allem die Änderungen an "Dragon's Rage" finde ich vielversprechend, da man in Zukunft gut zielen muss, um viel Schaden zu verursachen und nicht mit einem Druck auf R mal eben 800+ Schaden verursacht und den Gegner auch noch beteubt / wegschlägt.
Ich freue mich schon, endlich weniger Lee Sin "Faceroller" zu sehen 😉

@OrKeN
Die Änderung wird dafür sorgen, dass (zumindest im early game) der von Lee Sin gekaufte Schaden weniger Wert hat. Wenn er zum Beispiel 10 AD kauft, hätte er vorher mit seinem Q 9 Schaden mehr verursacht. Jetzt wird der Q nur noch 5 Schaden mehr verursachen. Das wird ihn am anfang schwächen und im late game etwas stärker machen.

MFG Jamaico

Ich finde die Idee der Änderung klasse, Nicht so stark im Endgame abfallen klingt super.

@Jamaico: Danke für das Rechenbeispiel! Verdeutlicht es nochmal gut. Meint ihr Lee Sin kriegt dadurch Probleme im Jungle selbst?

Die Änderungen machen das schadenspotential von lee kaputt wenn man off tank spielt. Des weiteren hatte ich nie frust gegen lee zu spielen und auch im late fällt man nicht wirklich zurück.
Zum wardjump.. Dann neft bitte auch jeden anderen champ der das kann -_-
Und wenn solche displacement ultis nicht zu dueling gedacht sind dann möchte ich auch sehen das tristanas ulti geneft wird
Der nerf is unnötig

Ich entschuldige mich wenn ich etwas falsch verstanden habe, englisch ist nicht meine Muttersprache

Ja das dachte ich mir auch, Lee Sinn ist tatsächlich nicht der einzige der das kann. Gut er bekommt noch ein Schild dazu. Aber naja.

Ich selber stehe den Änderungen eher kritisch gegenüber natürlich alles auf der Basis es nicht getestet zu haben. Und ich werde es mir dann gerne auf dem PBE anschauen. Aber momentan ist meine Einstellung eher mähh anstelle von juhu.^^

Fack you no nerf to lee bobs

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